Michelle: It’s not just your artistry or your understanding like as a practitioner It’s about the way you live your life in the form. Inviting discomfort also brings out brilliant shit.

Rob Jones: Welcome to Choreographer Conversations I’m Rob Jones, associate artistic director of Sadler’s Wells. Welcome, Michelle Dorrance. How are you?

Michelle: Thank you, Rob. I’m great. How are you?

Rob: I’m all right. I’m all right. I’m a bit Friday morning but really excited to do this with you What were sort of your earliest memories, I guess, of dance, of art, like where did that creative Michelle begin?

Michelle: Well my mom, M’Liss Dorrence M’Liss Gary, formerly M’Liss Gary, founded a school the year I was born She was a professional ballet dancer and then became an educator and she was teaching at Duke University. and she started the Ballet School of Chapel Hill and if it was successful the first year after it was just her and an administrator, Her two partners joined her, and it grew from there. And I was very lucky that the tap dance teacher who became my childhood mentor Gene Medler, was hired to teach there as well. So I studied ballet, I studied tap dance, I studied all kinds of things. But it was very clear from a young age that like, really music and musical forms was like, what lit me up and I also had less of an aptitude for ballet. – Right, right. But I really, my mom would encourage me and she’d just go, oh, honey, you have your father’s feet, my father is a notable soccer coach and coached the both actually coached the men and women at the University of North Carolina but then coached the US women’s national team. So she’d just say, oh you have your father’s feet and legs because I had flat feet And I wasn’t very flexible, but she’d say, you’re always on the music. Okay, right, right. That her point of encouragement for me as a young dancer.

Rob: And can you remember the specific moment where it turned from, like, an interest into, like, this is what I’m going to do? Or was it just kind of organic? Was there like, yeah Was there like that flash bulb moment for you?

Michelle: You know I, I loved it so much so young like I, I loved it so much and and Gene really pushed me. I mean he, when I was nine years old, he put me in a dance class with teenagers So I, I remember if anything actually being like, almost being nervous to be good. Like they were wearing high heels and I had Mary Jane tap shoes on. It was like, it was very intimidating. But I loved the musical language so much and he really encouraged us to improvise at a very young age and that I don’t remember, like a light bulb going off and thinking, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life I just knew it was. And I actually at, also at a young age, I didn’t think that it was a career I just knew I’d never stop tap dancing. So that like, I’ve had that question asked to me before and it was it’s more just that it was me. I felt it was, like I, it had so much to do with my self-identity and my expression. So, and also I was very lucky that at a young age, Gene started taking us to and he created a youth ensemble. He started taking us to these festivals that were gatherings of our elders. And these were legends of the jazz era, like hoofers, like unbelievable like I met both of the Nicholas brothers when I was, you know, 15 years old. And I, when I was 13 I met a young Savion Glover and Dianne Walker, and Barbara Duffy and all these, like, folks, Sam Weber, Ted Levy, all these folks that had, like, unbelievable influence, you know, on like me, but really a whole generation, so I knew from the moment, I mean, probably 13, 14 years old, like once we were in this space with this community of folks I just knew oh, this is my extended family. So this was a part of my life, regardless of what the career trajectory was and at the time, there wasn’t one that was written for tap dancers certainly. Exactly. Yeah. You know, it was, if anything, they were calling it the tap dance Renaissance, what was happening. You know, and then there were things like explosions that helped further it, like Savion Glover choreographing Noise Funk and that you know, going to Broadway. There were a handful of things that happened that like, really pushed it forward during my teenage years. But these gatherings is, you know, gatherings of the real, true community and tradition of tap dance, that, those were game changers for me. Yeah, it galvanized you. – For sure. And in terms of the influences of being around those legends and having those, really incredible interactions that I’m sure at the time you were aware of but probably as you get older and look back you’re thinking, like wow actually I’ve had something quite special there.

Rob: Has anything particular, I mean, lots, probably has stayed with you but in terms of working around those masters and yeah, has there been anything that they’ve kind of instilled in you as an artist?

Michelle: Oh my gosh. – Yeah. It’s like, I am because of them. It’s so crazy. Like, I say this all the time because I realise like some of the dancers that I work with now are, like, half my age, which is crazy and I realise, like, oh, you never met Jimmy Slyde You know like, and you almost want to say well you remember what someone said, you know, you remember what Cholly Atkins said You know, you remember what Mable said Like they’re, they, there’s just such an imprint on it’s not just your artistry or your understanding like as a practitioner it’s about the way you live your life in the form. And you know, for us, it’s like we are the, it’s an oral tradition and you are bearing this legacy, and it is one that is almost erased unless we do, so I mean, yeah, I I don’t exist without all of those people It’s unreal, yeah. Could you talk to me a bit about your creative influences, that kind of So obviously you’ve talked about these great masters your were around but are there maybe other art forms or kind of what what were the things that were magnetic for you that kind of fed Michelle? I mean, I should also mention this When I was young, I watched my mom make all these crazy story ballets I mean, like she and her collaborators, I also watched her collaborate. And this is these are things I’m putting together now, because when you’re young, it’s just exciting. But I was thrilled by watching something go from the last run in the studio to tech rehearsal To dress rehearsal, to the show. And I was a kid, I mean like this is where I spent if there was a night, you know, both my parents were really busy My dad’s coaching three teams. You know my mom was like creating and teaching and you know, she had like multiple full time jobs Like, it was insane. So I went, we were there My sister and I were there, you know, later, my little brother but he was, he’s so much younger, so we were running around the theatre while that was happening. It was like, I remember it so well. So I, like that had a huge impact on me. And in that I love process, in that I also love creating something for the stage. so experiencing what my mom created and watching her do that, like it had such an impact on me, and I like I’m putting it together now. Also reflecting on it. and then there’s just like artists inside of the field of tap dance that changed my life, like Savion Glover changed my life. Yeah, he was a revolutionary. Like he changed the form. He changed the way we dance. Certainly my generation and then generations after it. So, yeah, as a 13 year old, like, he had such an imprint on me. And then I have to say, are elders of his and mine Dianne Walker and Brenda Bufalino. Those are two women that have, like, just constantly made me self-reflect on myself as an artist and a woman in our field and as a tradition bearer but also as someone with a unique voice like I’ve been so mentored by them, and I’m so grateful. And of course, I mentioned Gene Medler before but huge impact on me But I really I’m such a fan of music. Like when I moved to New York City,I didn’t save my money to go see dance shows. I saved my money to go see live music. I didn’t have a fake ID to drink. I had a fake ID to get into clubs to see live music. Nice. And then just in terms of your mentors and kind of Gene in particular, were there any key I mean, I think the answer will probably be so much, so many things Like he’s really kind of instilled, you know, you on like a good path, but are there any key lessons you hold with you that you, you share with other artists in your practice and kind of?

Michelle: Yeah, I, you know, I,I say this quite a bit about Gene, like and I think all of us who’ve been influenced by him do, like he can distil very complex things down to like a single sentence And one of them, and I share this quite a bit in so many interviews is dance to express not to impress, which is like as a kid to hear this is so important. Lovely, so could you talk to me a bit about how you how you begin a new project, how an idea comes to life for you. So many different ways.

Rob: Yeah? Go on.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like I said earlier, a piece of music can be the reason, and whether that’s the way it makes me feel, whether that’s because I can hear a compositional element that can live inside of it or in counterpoint to it. Like, yeah, if it’s just a groove and I can’t let go and I just want to make music to it Lately it’s energetic, it’s like and also like, now I can it’s interesting. More recently, an emotional impulse and sometimes conceptual emotional impulse can be the root of a work or can be the root of the beginning of a work. Every once in a while, it’s a I can think of an artist or group of artists, or at the intersection of artists and energies and think, I know what that that could be, and how can we what supports that musically? like every once in a while it can start somewhere else. And I also sometimes it’s hard to not respond to the world. I mean it’s hard to not respond to. I often want to respond but it has to be organic. I can’t say we have to make a piece about fascism right now. And then I sit down and I write ideas like it has to be. It has to be organic. Yeah, like The Center Will Not Hold is a good example of the way something has developed, and it is deeply collaborative. And with a dear friend, I, it’s… I wanted to make something for myself. I was making two very different pieces at once. Like one a half evening piece and one like a, you know, 15, 20 minute work, all for a new evening of dance at the Joyce in New York. And I knew what I wanted 45th and eighth to be, and it was like, in love with Aaron Marcellus and whatever he was going to make And I knew how I wanted to serve that And then I made a work for my elders in Stomp, the women that influenced me, and also changed a generation of percussive dancers because they’re bad bitches, am I allowed to say that?

Rob: Yes, absolutely

Michelle: Okay, great. So, and even the development of those things I like, I really loved responding to their energies and, and Aaron in particular, his compositions. So then there was just I also realized I needed to make something for me in my most honest, individual emotional expression. And so I asked my best friend, I just said, we want to make a duet with me. And she’s like, what can this, what should this be Like, she just went, She’s just like, I’m not a very good dancer right now. My back, like my back is killing me. I’m like, well, let’s just start with pain. Yeah. You know, start with this. Let’s just start with we’re aging dancers and let’s see where that goes. So I made this little duet, you know, became very vulnerable and it became very confined. And also we didn’t have very much space to create it. So you had the boxes of the light. That is where they came from. So it was a little room, I mean, boy were there some interpretations of it being about Covid and all these other things. And it was really just about where the two of us were in our lives. And then when we were creating this work, and we honestly the point of origin of the work originally was going to be like a closing element for a hip hop festival that didn’t end up happening. And she really wanted a percussive element and it was going to be footwork styles. And I’m like, this is my dream. To help people understand that these footwork styles that live in street and club forms are all rooted in tap dancing. Absolutely. And so I was just so electrified by it. But what we thought was that we would make a big like wham bam, thank you, ma’am closing number, which like, you know how to do, you know, in these spaces, you know, with ending with a bump and everyone’s excited, you know, but then there was an invitation that we could, because this festival didn’t happen, that we could continue to make that work, but it didn’t have to live in that space energetically. We don’t need a closer. And that we could maybe even investigate the world that our duet lived in. And then we were both immediately exploded into what this could be. So I’m telling this entire story to answer to No, it’s great. How does like how do you create like where do things come from.

Rob: What’s the inspiration like, what’s the process?

Michelle: This was a really interesting maze to the process of we have the freedom to create something with the intersection of these forms that can all be high energy forms. And therefore often people think it’s endless joyful expression. And we realized that kind of energy can also build a lot of tension and can also live in a really dark space and an investigative space. And so what we realised at the time is that we could respond to an energy that was in the world right now, some darker political energies, some very divisive energies. And how can we, as a group of people, very unique on one to the next these artists How can we respond as a collective with myriad voices in a way that is powerful and confronts this energy?

Michelle: So and when we got to to flesh it out to make a full evening work of it because it was only, you know, it was a 30 minute work at first we were able to only more deeply investigate what I think we’re all grappling with right now of the rise of fascism, endless divisiveness, so much hatred, so much violence, so it was a, you know, many stages to get to where we ended up with it. But it was like we were invited. And like almost like we were allowed and it’s interesting to sometimes it goes further than I think people realise, you know, to an invitation goes a long way.

Rob: With that work in particular you’ve got, what have you got? So there’s tap, juking, ballroom…

Michelle: Yeah, memphis jookin’ , Detroit Jit, Chicago footwork.

Rob: Got breakers in there –

Michelle: Beassie’s repping lite feet.

Rob: Yes. Incredible.

Michelle: You know, breaking, house dance, whacking. Yeah I mean, like popping.

Rob: It’s all happening. Yeah.

Michelle: There’s even a little bit of, like, social dance that they. That’s sort of like a hustle. That’s like Detroit based. Okay. Like, there’s all these little. They’re all teeny little moments of so many things of course, tap dance. And we have an incredible percussionist who is like a world champion snare drummer. It’s been really fun. I learn every time I’m with this group of artists. And as a choreographer, working with, when you’re bringing in other artists that have different skill sets and, but obviously, you know, you know what you need, you know, the energy that kind of you’re working towards, like how what skills to use to kind of to integrate. I think finding common language is like lights me up so much and also seeing something I’ve never done is equally exciting. So at so many different points in my life, I’ve had little conversations with different artists that are footwork driven, and I got to start to explore more regularly with Lil Buck, because we were often both at Vale dance festival, and we’d get these teeny little moments inside of a larger work to play. And also a Ephrat, B-girl Bounce like my dear friend who is like, you know, co-directed and created this with me. Like when we first met and really became best friends, it was almost constant exchange. So getting in this space with these artists like it. Of course, I have a, rhythmic and percussive approach to footwork ideas, but because early in my own choreographic work, I quite frequently investigated how to illustrate something more clearly to an audience that did not understand the technical elements of tap dance. Like what does a toe versus a heel versus a ball of the foot versus a heel drop sound like, what do these things mean?

Michelle: So I had like all of this like very in a lot of my for dancers, the artists I work with, like some of them did not have internal and external rotation at their fingertips. And they would be like, geez, Michelle, but I would do I would almost over illustrate things and like light just the lower leg. I had all these ideas because I wanted people to understand, and in part because I was like at first a rare tap dance choreographer in these concert dance spaces. So sometimes, like, yeah, I thought it was a great lighting concept, but also I really wanted people to focus on this thing that, you know, is taken for granted because sometimes we dance with such relaxation it looks, you know, effortless and is also hard to understand. Everyone knows what a sickled foot looks like, but people don’t know a thing about tap dance technique, You know, like it’s very interesting. Sorry, so I really I’ve gone off on a tangent, but

Rob: This is good tangent.

Michelle: Okay, okay but I say all this to say I’ve been investigating all these really strange, not traditional tap dance ideas in the way I will use single sounds in my footwork. Yes, so that those investigations only helped lay a foundation to then intersect with the footwork that lives inside of house. Which, by the way, the first time I saw house dancing when I was a teenager, I grew up in North Carolina, okay? But I thought people were fake tap dancing. I was like, look at them go they better fake tap dance with like, so much fluidity. I had no idea. And this is early house like, you know, but yeah, I then fell in love with that form and realised, like, yes tap dancing lives in this form. So like, there are these common commonalities. And then there’s like unbelievable, you know, innovation. And so playing with Buck, playing with Mike Manson, you know, a little bit my friend Donnetta, who’s a Chicago foot worker and Hoofer, those conversations have been so much fun because there is so much tap dance inside of this language, right? Yes. And then, you know, finding a language that we can all share because there are moments where we find, you know, truly unison footwork. It is, it’s kind of like, what would our ABCs be if we’re all speaking different languages and we still have to communicate? What are those? What are those touchstones? Yeah, and so, it’s only been really incredible to investigate that with the cast. Yeah, it’s awesome and everyone is a choreographic collaborator. Everyone creates and everyone improvises. You can feel that in your work that you are a prolific collaborator and there’s a real, you’re getting the best out of everyone kind of, you know, you’re in it together and everyone is bringing something to the mix. Yeah, it’s the only way.

Rob: How do you lead spaces like that?

Michelle: I often I think what can bring out both invention and also a deep truth, like a good core of someone’s history. is asking inviting folks into, something they’ve never done but have to apply their language. And in this case, some of it is just a unique time signature. Like a lot of folks that are in street and club forms, they’re not dancing in a seven, four, you know, or five four. Usually it’s a four four Folks count to four Folks come to eight and to turn something around at a seven, people like shit, you know, like because that’s not the phrase. It’s not even the groove steps that live in hip hop and house and breaking and all these different forms their groove steps, they live with the music. And also we’re all it’s all these are all rhythm forms, like these are musical forms, so to shift the turn of the phrase is to make, is to pull something off balance is to omit or add something. It’s really interesting or even to put something from a four into a six. So like that has been just saying, hey, I have an idea. Let’s sit in this groove right now and let’s see what happens. Or if I’m like, I will scat something. Can you create something to this rhythmic idea, with these accents? Can you sit in this bounce in a six over this four and then have these accents and it completely, it invites folks into what is the thing that I feel the best when I’m sitting and okay, great. And then what like what comes out of any artist that is a freestyle artist like is so exceptional because there is the limitation helps free other things. Yeah and inviting the discomfort also brings out brilliant shit.

Rob: You just keep working. Push through push through. When I was, doing my prep for this, I was looking and I kept writing down, Plays well with others, that you can feel this real generosity in how you approach your creation.

Michelle: Well, I learn so much. Yeah I mean, I think it’s like, I appreciate that because I also want to work with generous artists, but it’s also curiosity.

Rob: Yeah. Of course.

Michelle: Yeah. And I think that’s the death of the world right now. People weren’t curious about each other, they don’t care It’s the death of care. So that, yeah I think yeah I that means so much to me. And it’s not that I don’t also love like creating something without collaborating because that exists so much in my other work. But yeah, right now I think it’s really important. And people’s egos are huge and it’s insane. So it’s like really important to I think show how this shows strength and openness. And that is so both in artistic practice and in life.

Rob: Brilliant, okay. What would you say has been the most transformative project of your career so far.

Michelle: Rob, you sent over that question before and I thought about it and I still couldn’t tell you if there’s a single one because I’ve had so many.

Rob: Well, I think also there’s a lot going on right? So were there ones that really felt like turning points for you or kind of or something where there were shifts in your practice, you felt like something had actually, it had changed for you, or sent you in a slightly different direction you hadn’t expected?

Michelle: That’s helpful. I feel like there are a few points really early in, like, the gift of being invited to create, like, because I was in Stomp and I was in the New York City cast of Stomp and I got this great invitation from an incredible artist, David Parker, to create half an evening which, a shared evening with one of my heroes, or Dormeshia. For Dance Space, which is a postmodern Danspace, you know, performance space in New York. And it’s in a church, which is unbelievable. Saint Mark’s Church in the Bowery. And the artistic director, Judy Hussie-Taylor was so kind and but also said, like you, you know, we can’t actually tap dance on the wood. This gorgeous wood floor. So, the very first time I was given a half evening to create work in New York City, I couldn’t use the floor. I was like, what the…

Rob: What? So what What did you do?

Michelle: Yeah no, so so, but I mean, in the end, I think tap dancers are constantly having to navigate this as the sort of the bastard dance form Well, we’re just nobody wants us on the floor. You don’t have one floor for us, like.

Rob: No, no, we get it every time stuff comes here, it’s not just tap, flamenco aswell…

Michelle: So no, for sure, flamenco Yeah, the floors are a thing, right?

Rob: Keep going.

Michelle: Absolutely. No. And I know other percussive dance artists deal with this, endlessly just like we do

Rob: Still, keep going.

Michelle: But, so we brought in wood, roll up wood floors to put on the wood floor. But then there was this huge floor, and I just thought, okay, so and not long before that, you know, our elder and legend, Jimmy Slyde had passed, Dr Jimmy Slyde and he in, like, he just inspired me so much and in conversation and shared time with him, influenced my thinking so much. And so I just thought, okay, let’s make a tribute to Jimmy, and we can do it in socks because you can hear it in this space. And that’s the other really unique thing about that space, Danspace at Saint Mark’s Church, like, we didn’t even have to mic the floor. You could hear a sock 100ft away, a socked footfall and a heel drop. You can hear the bass in your body in the space, unreal. So then I created this, like, slide work in socks. And then, you know, I had a few other ideas just percussive early in the space. And so being invited into having to, you know, necessity is the mother of invention, like so very early. I feel like that invited me into so much. And then I, you know, had the opportunity to return a year later and make a site specific work for that place. We made wooden taps, we danced in leather soles, we danced barefoot, we danced And so just like inviting all the different textures of our form into this space, into this like, chamber of sound. So that was an early like and actually the same year, another really transformative experience for me, which was the Blues Project. There’s a woman who, Toshi Regan, is a truth sayer and a carrier of like you know, black legacy in music who I’d been a fan of since I was 17, since I moved to New York, I finally met her, and then I was yeah, she invited me to do this great project with her, celebrate the great women of blues and jazz. And I just thought, people don’t think about tap dance and blues together because, you know, tap dance sort of grew up alongside jazz music, but those forms are older than jazz and so I just asked her, can we investigate this?

Michelle: And when she said yes, I knew Dormeshia and Derrick K. Grant were my collaborators and that happened the same year at Soundspace, like that, that creative process, they were both like lived inside And so that year really changed my thinking in terms of what we could create and put into space, and that people would be interested. You know this there wasn’t a ton of tap dance like touring in, in these spaces or being invited to share with this kind of audience, you know, I should say. So, it helped me understand, like, people are interested in what we have to say and interested in the way tap dance is expansive. And so that was only a yes, and for okay, the next thing we tried was ETM that came here to Sadler’s, which a dear friend of mine had been working on, like basically an electronic drum kit for the feet. But out of these, like, you know, piezo elements and like triggering things that he looped into Ableton Live and then like, it was insane. So we like, made an expansive version of this and collaborated on that. A show like that. So I think those the early, early work really helped send it like, you know what I was after into how can we help people understand how, at first of all, never losing the history of the form, but actually showing that rock of like brilliant invention from 100 years ago, it’s still brilliant. Like those artists that changed the form in the early 1900s are unreal No, people still can’t recreate that work. It’s, you know, I’m going to swear all the time–

Rob: Do it.

Michelle: It’s unfucking believable. But so I say that to say like we are still after what they created, then those like, those are artists from, you know, 1900 to 1940s And that’s not to say the artists that came after that that influenced us so much, didn’t deeply impact us. But it is unbelievable. So to try to hold 100 years of history and also show this, you know, expansion into now, it was just really it was a it was an unbelievable opportunity and people were embracing it. So I really cite those things. But and I also cite Sound space, which is the work that we created in the space. As it just like being a touchstone for like, I then knew, oh my gosh, site specific work is for me. And we don’t always get invited to do it because of the nature of percussive dance and floors and things like that. But, the other two opportunities that I had to collaborate and create site specific works one was in the Guggenheim Rotunda, and I think I believe we were the first dance artists that were allowed to create a work in the rotunda with a lot of rules. So many rules, but

Rob: A rotunda, as in…

Michelle: Yeah, inside of the Guggenheim Museum. I mean it’s like, this endless

Rob: I’m not being…

Michelle: No, no,

Rob: It’s a big swirly…

Michelle: Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, Frank Lloyd Wright. And, so we were allowed to create in that space. And the first thing we learned when we went in there is that if you tap dance like, you know, virtuosically, it turns into white noise. You’re like, oh, this is fascinating, what are we…

Rob: Bouncing right off…

Michelle: Yeah, yeah. And we tried to keep time just clapping across the rotunda from one another, impossible. Like it was because of the, yeah, I know,

Rob: So how did you…

Michelle: Oh my gosh, it was so much fun. But this is what I’m saying. Like, we you know, I wish that it was that work was so much fun to create because it was so challenging. And then, you know, when once Covid hit and, we were going to do in 2020, we were going to dance in both theatres at Jacob’s Pillow at once. I even had, like, plans of golf carts going back and forth, and people could be in both works and we were so excited and Covid hit. And also the Doris Duke to burned down. And that summer, I know for the pillow was really devastating. And we still came to perform on the outdoor stage. And also we created a work that moved around the space like of the campus, not the space, like, we created work in gravel, we created work in the woods, we created work in all these different spaces, and including, like some maybe condemned old intern housing, as, like a little village. So, like, I fell and still am obsessed with creating work in environments and because it’s so deeply asks, like, you know, of response from an artist, you have first you have to respond. You can’t walk in and throw something on the space. You have to honour what it asks of you. And I think creating and responses is one of the most important things we can do also right now.

Rob: Do you feel that dynamic of creating in response or having having restraints, having things that kind of push you to kind of think outside the box, does that help to cultivate your creativity? Like how do you, how do you look after that creative muscle for you?

Michelle: That is that’s good that, I think it helps me let go. I think that is really important because I can also I think be really hard on myself and live in a space of, you know, we can all do this, like be too controlling and too much of a perfectionist. And yeah I think it invites me out of control.

Rob: Interesting. – Yeah. And then that’s then when you’re doing work say for stage which is a super controlled environment, couldn’t be more controlled, how do you balance those dynamics? Do you, are you are you the kind of choreographer that can let go, let it happen and not get too…

Michelle: With age, yeah

Rob: With age? Say more.

Michelle: I mean, you experience so many technical disasters, you’re like, okay, you know, but at first when I was a young career younger choreographer, it was devastating to have something go wrong. And then, you know, as you get older, you realize, like, things are going to go wrong and that’s a part of it. And all you can do I mean, I think I also had to learn young because I had so many ideas and they needed to be perfect. And I wanted everything in there, you know we all learn to kill our darlings. And also, you have to be in service of the work. You can’t be in service of your ego or yourself or your idea. Oh my gosh. And you can’t be in service of the thing, your favourite things. Oh, it’s so painful.

Rob: Go on.

Michelle: Oh, man. There’s some musical ideas that sometimes are my favorite in fact, including in Sound Space. I had this, like, thing I was developing with a young Byron Tittel and Demi Remick. I loved these grooves we were developing. I was obsessed with them musically. They’re gone. They never made their way into anything. But, and they were some of my favourite music I was making for that work. And I mean, like, acapella, like just I was like, voice noting myself. I found the voice note feature on a phone. Yeah, I had a BlackBerry. You know, like, I was just upset and I was just, like, working on the musical elements in this and some counterpoint and some polyrhythm and like these, you know, whatever, it doesn’t matter. I had to cut it. It did not serve the flow of the of the evening. It didn’t serve the space. And it was devastating. And but I realized it and I kept I had these little pieces of paper that I was moving around to figure out, like the flow. And I, and I could not fit it. I mean, you know, we all we encounter this so much I think so many artists. But to learn it was so painful.

Rob: It’s I think it’s an important lesson to learn and hold. And I mean, I work with all kinds of artists, at different stages, but yeah, I think in the long run, it gets you to where you need to go, right? I’m curious to understand how you feel about this, this legacy that you’re holding, that you’re bringing. You’re bringing this tradition forward to tap, you’ve worked with incredible artists. You continue to kind of, push things forward. How does that sit with you as a choreographer, as a maker, like in present day?

Michelle: I mean, right now, the thing I’m so grateful for is just that, like, for like a short couple of years, it was really hard for whether it was the press and like, not to be shady, but like, I think it’s easy to find one person to focus on and I don’t I don’t want to call anyone lazy. It’s just a cultural problem. Savion was the king of tap dance, and people were trying to make me a would be queen for a second. And I’m like, my queen is Dormeshia. So I don’t know what y’all are talking about. You know what I mean? Like, it’s really interesting to, like, have some ideas, to have them supported, to have them be successful. And then all of a sudden you’re the one doing it. And I’m like, are you kidding? Do you know…

Rob: Like, hello?

Michelle: Well, first of all, do you know my elders? And second of all, do you know my peers and the folks that are just a little bit older than me, that have been pushing me my whole life, both as soloists, as creators, as improvisational dancers, as brilliant musicians, as multihyphenates, like, you know, so I think the only thing I can continue to do in this space, because I am one of many tradition bearers and I’m one of many creators, is just to continue to invite people into the community. Like I hope to only continue to peak people’s curiosity so that folks investigate more tap dance artists like that. And that’s all I can like… They’re the artists I share space with and the artists I share generation. Not to mention now the ones younger than me, like, are unfreaking believable, like tap dance, tap dancers are some of my favourite artists on the planet. Of course it’s my field, but like, I really mean that. Like it is. What a gift to be a mover musician. You know it is and I think it’s also the best kept secret. I think if more people tap dance, everyone would be a better person.

Rob: Say more there.

Michelle: I just, it’s a really, you just you have to be so present. And you’re responsible for so much. Like and that and what a gift I think like not a burden. You know. And yeah it’s visceral. You can feel the weight of your body create sound, you know like it’s not just an instrument like you’re playing a room. Yeah. Like it’s. Yeah. It’s unbelievable.

Rob: How do you choose dancers that you want to work with?

Michelle: Sometimes I feel like dancers choose me.

Rob: Say more.

Michelle: Well I and I don’t mean to say like they’re like, “you”. Especially when I first started creating more and like when I create, like, founded a company, which I did very much by accident. I was really interested in the characters that were these artists that were my friends or my students or, you know, like, I, I think it’s a reflection of the great history of tap dance soloists that are individual stylists. You know, tap dance has never been something that had a core de ballet. Everyone was unique. I mean, and that is also like if you want to look at like a history, not everybody wants to look at, and also it’s often why tap dance is dismissed. But vaudeville is such a huge part of the story, and that just meant someone refining something to like everyone had their act, and that means a voice or an idea was refined down to the most niche and detailed and unbelievable execution and and and, you know? So, I still think I’m attracted to this thing that lives in the modern origin of tap dance. Performance and individual expression and individual like character and emotion. Bringing those individuals together it to me is really exciting. And it’s also the, you know, it’s. Yeah, ideally we create on stage sometimes the world we want to see. And so I used to call, there is a moment in this work where we were dancing, we covered Bon Iver’s Wash. it’s a song I really love is so deeply compelling to me. And, there’s a moment where everyone’s looks kind of like they’re flying and one of the dancers at that time asked a question like, is there something you want from our upper body or part of our whatever? And I just said, no, oh my gosh, please, no one I don’t want anyone to change a thing because every person had interpreted my phrase in their way. And it was so beautiful. I think it was like my longtime dance captain, Elizabeth Burke, and like she and also, I think other people were trying to look like her. She had just this, a gorgeous way of doing it. It was like, please don’t. Yeah. Because that’s… Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You know, and you know, and someone was more reckless and someone couldn’t even get their left shoulder out because of a shoulder injury, like that to me. And so I was like, no, we’re a flock of birds.

Michelle: But it’s like the flock of birds at the end of the world, right? Where there’s one bird of each like kind. And so this is like we’re an apocalyptic flock, you know, and that’s the way I described that moment. But that is a really good way to describe what I’m after. When working with artists, when I especially if I see someone and immediately have a vision for them. That is, I, I’m like, oh, great. And I even mean like inside of their own lane. Like sometimes it’s I want to create for that person and sometimes I want to ask them to create something for themselves. It’s so it’s just like not silly, but like, yeah, I don’t ever mean to be selfish in that lane. I think it’s just when you’re lit up by another artist and what they do and have an idea for it, I mean, like how I feel guilty, like how lucky to be able to do that. It’s crazy.

Rob: And are there any collaborations that there definitely are that you still want to take on? Things you want to do in future? Talk to us about kind of, yeah. Where you’re dreaming, what direction you’re kind of thinking in. Yeah.

Michelle: There’s so many also like that is a long list, but, a really easy thing to tell you that has been a dream for many years now, is I want to make not just collaborate with my brother because now you know he is he has been composing for my work for a while. I want to collaborate and create and perform with him. Like that. The, you know, Double D’s and the direction of

Rob: Double Dorrance , Dorrance squared.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But, no, I, my brother Donovan is someone I really love working with and love creating with. And I would love to create something that is musical And I also like asking him to move even though he is less comfortable But I would love to create something with him specifically. Like, I can tell you my my pipe dreams of like folks that are, you know, maybe I’ll never meet in my life, but would love to work with or collaborate with. I would be remiss if I didn’t also say like I would love to make something and tour it with my little brother. Yeah, like and I mean that I think we would love to share it with And also we love to experience place together. And we love to learn from other cultures together and we yeah So I think that is probably the best answer I could give you. I would love to make something with Donovan Dorrance

Rob: Okay. Yeah. You heard it here first. Great okay. I think that’s all we’ve got time for today, Michelle.

Michelle: Thanks Rob.

Rob: Thank you so much. It’s been so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you. I’m really excited for the future.

Michelle: Me too. Thank you.

Rob: Thank you.