Sidi Larbi Chekaoui: I told him like this is the last piece I’m ever making and this was my first piece.

Sidi: So you have to kind of fight. You have to break yourself open

Alistair Spalding: Welcome to Choreographer conversations. And today we have Sidi Larbi Chekaoui with us, which is a great pleasure. And so I’m going to talk about, you know, your early experiences and just try and think, I mean, there’s so much, there’s so much that you’ve done, that we’re going to try and do in chunks of, like, concepts. But I want to start more or less from the beginning. And your first, your upbringing and how you found, how you came across dance as a thing in your life?

Sidi: Well, I when I think about when I was a kid and seeing dance, the first time I saw dance was actually my parents dancing when they were happy, which wasn’t always the case. And so when they were happy, they were actually putting on the radio and dancing. And so for me, dancing became a space of safety, feeling like things are okay because we’re dancing. And I think that really, really shaped me. This notion of dance is safe and dance is, connection versus anything else that’s not connection. And so I think that was the first time I really got moved by dance is by seeing my parents. And then just I’m a kid of the 80s. So we were watching a lot of television and I saw Fame, which I realized, oh my God, you can study dance. It’s actually something you could be learning. And, becoming a dancer felt like very far from anything that someone like me could imagine doing when I was a kid. And so suddenly I realized, no, no, it’s possible in America. It’s possible far away, not in Belgium, but then slowly and surely through, you know, influences from more other pop artists like Kate Bush was a huge inspiration for me, seeing the freedom of how she expressed herself singing and moving and it being at the same time magical and sort of strange, but also enticing and and all the characters that she played. I think different pop artists really formed me.

And then slowly but surely, when I was 15 and my parents divorced and I had some space to maybe find my true vocation, let’s say, then I decided I want to go for dancing. And I started to take classes of anything that was available for me. I had my ballet teacher back in the day who had been taking classes for two years, so it was really a beginner. But she said, you have a particular way of moving. You should do this contest, and you should just move the way you move. And so there were these different places, in Belgium, in Flanders, that, you know, you could kind of like apply. So I went through the first round, second round, third, and I actually won. It was the best Belgian, dance competition. Alain was the, kind of like the initiator of this project. And the funny thing was that back then, I met all these very famous Flemish choreographers that I didn’t know because I came from a very kind of like, you know, like a suburb of Antwerp. So I was really not familiar with any of these big names of contemporary dance. So for me, when I remember one of the people in, the jury was Wim Vandekeybus, a very famous choreographer in Flanders, and he was like, oh, you know, you don’t know who I am. And I’m like: No, I don’t really know who you are. He’s like: I’m a choreographer, from Belgium. I’m like, oh, me too. So I had a tendency already when I was 19 to see myself as, you know, part of the landscape in my own kind of reality. I felt like that’s what I do.

But of course, then, thanks to this contest, I got to go to school, to a contemporary dance school in Brussels, which was P.A.R.T.S which is a school from Anne Teresa de Keersmaeker and it’s a very, it was back in the day, very experimental. So we had people coming from Forsythe from, Pina Bausch, Trisha Brown. So it was a real education in contemporary dance because I had been only doing more, let’s say, conservative forms like jazz or ballet or, you know, some tap dance and so I was really in that kind of genre, and suddenly I was propelled into contemporary dance, which really made me see the world in a whole other perspective. Like I had suddenly so much perspective on things, and every teacher was telling me a different way to stand, a different way to move. And I loved it because it really gave me, I don’t know, it’s like suddenly you have all these colours, these possibilities and you were not defined by one style. You had many possible styles you could, visualize yourself in. So that really opened up my world.

And then Alain, a couple of years later, just invited me to become a dancer in his company, Le Ballets C de la B which was a company based in Gent. And I said yes. And so I started as a dancer for him. And that was, a wonderful experience because he’s such a man of integrity and gentle, kind of very artistic approach of giving a lot of space for his performers to figure things out, which was exactly where I was needing to be at that moment in my own journey as a performer. So I really felt like he gave me all the tools to become a choreographer. Like, really, I learned a lot from him through the space that he gave me.

Alistair: Yes. And that’s when I first saw you, of course, because we brought Lets Op Bach, to the Southbank when I was working there and I was looking again at it and your solo, which was really amazing. Remarkable.

Sidi: Thank you.

Alistair: And you could see in there that one of the qualities, if you like, is your flexibility. I mean, you went into extreme postures through it and then out again and you had this flexibility which was, which is new and exciting. That’s why I obviously was interested in working with you. So I wondered how you got to that stage because you can’t just suddenly put your leg around your neck. You were doing yoga or what was your sort of practice?

Sidi: Well, I didn’t back in the day, I didn’t know yoga, so I was kind of like figuring things out on my own. So I was watching a lot of gymnasts, and they were my idols. And so I was always thinking, like, how do they do the things they do? And so I had a tendency to just sort of learn from looking around and just trying to figure out my own techniques to get things done and, in my body. And I felt the flexibility was also linked back in the day to a certain mental flexibility that I had to have. You know, like, there’s so much, one has to overcome so many things, especially when you start late as a dancer, it’s a bit less problematic now but back in the day, it was really. Yeah. A lot of people look down upon you, so you you have to kind of fight and you have to break yourself open in order to convince people that, no, I am really someone you should, you know, listen to, too and so it’s really kind of, what came from a sense of, I don’t know, a deep willpower. And so I was I just kept working really, really hard back then, in, in a very particular way which one saw in the way I was moving. And I loved exploring things like that solo, for instance, I used fire on stage. I don’t even think that’s possible anymore today. But back in the day, we were really, I was all the time trying to see what was possible. And, a part of me misses that time, you know, because I really felt very in some ways, very free, because no one, you know, paid attention to you. So you could just kind of, like, do your thing. And then suddenly people were like, Ooh! Who’s that? And what’s he doing? But it was a lovely, lovely experience.

Alistair: And you could see in there already your vocabulary almost. It was, it was created then and in a way continues, doesn’t it. That’s where you see the Larbi language, if you like.

Sidi: Yeah, yeah, I think the fun thing is that, you know, we it always depends on the person who saw you first and where they saw you first. For them. But what’s fascinating for me in that time, if I go all the way back to my time as a student and my time as a dancer for Alain, which is a very particular moment in my life, you know, some of the vocabulary that’s in there I developed actually in parts when I was in school and I remember, there was an, an evening that was organized in which we were supposed to show off our material. And, and I had developed this thing that we showed one evening, and then the teachers were like, no, we’re not showing this tomorrow because it doesn’t really represent the school. And I was devastated. I was devastated, and so what I did is for the next 25 years, use this material all the time as a way to show what rejection does to a person. Because when you get rejected, you really feel like. But I think it’s valuable what I have here and people go, no, it doesn’t, it has no value whatsoever. I just felt like, okay, now I’m going to do this. And Alain loved it. So, he was like, I like what you’re doing here with your hands. Like, okay, so I’m going to do this. And then I eventually made it a form of trademark, but I just want to reiterate where it came from. It came from rejection.

Alistair: Yeah, interesting, so from the motivation, actually. And then then we go into, because under the banner of Ballets C de la B so they, they looked after you. for the first few productions didn’t they and they were, they were quite formative, you know, and this is in the 2000s, beginning of 2000s Three pieces, Rien de Rien, Foi and Tempus Fugit, but all had similarities but all had similarities and the use of music, you know, the theatricality and they sort of, they set your, your place in the choreographic world. I think.

Sidi: Yes. I mean, that was absolutely, I was so lucky that I had a structure in a company that was willing to, you know, to invest in other artists and just Alain Platel, and Alain was just in a moment in his life where he really wanted to break open his company and create opportunities for other choreographers. And that’s sort of how I was so, you know, incredibly lucky that they would give all these resources to someone who didn’t have all the experience, but somehow had some ideas of what to do. And, yeah, I look back with a lot of gratitude because it’s not an easy, it was it was hard also to make these works, you know, after every piece, like after Rien de Rien I remember telling one of my, you know, that, very close artist, Damien Jalet, the choreographer, who was a dancer back in the day with me and, and really, really helped me so much develop my my way of thinking about work and how to choreograph. He, I told him like, this is the last piece I’m ever making, and this was my first piece, and then the second piece. The same, with Foi I was like, this is the last time I’m doing this because it it took so much out of you. So whenever there’s young choreographers and they’re like, oh my God, I don’t think this is for me I’m like, you know, we all had that. It’s really hard. And you, when you really mean it and you’re very serious about what you’re doing, it’s very, very hard to have the, the feedback culture you’re in, you know, it’s like somebody making notes on what you’re wearing every day. It’s, like, really hard then to be in front of your closet and go, what am I going to wear today? Because it’s really going to be a thing again, it’s going to be a subject. And so I think as an artist, I really grew a lot from that time and thank God I had people who were very supportive and very gentle with me in order to kind of survive those first moments of, yeah, of feedback.

Alistair: Yeah. You need that support, don’t you? You need people who really and I remember the, the manager of Ballets C de la B really pushing you. And that’s when I heard you as a choreographer and, and then and followed. But, how did it feel suddenly to be in this place, though, because you went from not really known at all into, you know, kind of major figure, were you… and the other thing about there is that you started to really make work quickly. So these pieces were made over four years, right? I mean, and it started, it’s the start of your pattern, really, of making lots of work. You know, from what you said, it was hard to go back to making another one, but it didn’t put you off, and you became quite a thing, didn’t it?

Sidi: Yeah. And I think one of the reasons I keep making work is I keep trying again. So every work is like maybe this time maybe this is the one where it’s going to work. So I always feel like it’s a failure. And so every time I’m like okay let’s try again. Okay. Let’s try again. Okay. Let’s try again. So it’s it’s really a pattern of and then I love the creation process. So inside of the creating I really really like it. I find it always hard to have a premiere like the premiere is the worst. It’s like, oh my God, everybody’s going to watch and they’re all going to have their own relationship, and they haven’t gone through the process of, the growth process so they haven’t seen the tree grow. They just decide what they think of the shape of the tree. And you can still trim after, you know, but it’s like that that growth process that I care about only exists in the doing. And for me, the choreographing is in the studio is when you are developing the work. So in order to do that, I have to have opening nights in order to, you know, like so it’s really for the process that I do it. That’s why I do a lot, because I love being in the studio and trying to figure out what are the steps, what is the vibe, what is the, what are the ideas that really matter today, and what could we talk about? And I think I’ll keep doing that. So, for me, they’re all sketches also like they’re, they’re still and sometimes I have what I love is older work that I can revisit. Sometimes I can polish it and make it a little bit, you know, easier for people to, to enter it to, to open doors or so. It’s amazing to be today on tour with the piece like Sutra 17 years. It’s incredible. And it just gives me the opportunity to really appreciate it, which, you know, when I did the premiere, here, it was. It was stressful. It was very stressful. And I remember even being lost in it, you know, lost as a performer, even wondering why am I in this piece? What am I actually about? You know, when I do this and so having now been able to give my role to someone else and it must be a bit my midlife crisis, you know, I’m almost 50. I feel like there’s a space for me to appreciate my past self. And that’s really, you know, I’m very thankful for that.

Alistair: Just going back to those three, early pieces. So the other element which appeared was the live music, I’m particularly looking at different, places for the music and also back into the past 14th century, music and often the voice. And that’s also continued, hasn’t it? Even in Zero Degrees, you sing and, just talk about that a little bit.

Sidi: Yeah. I think the, what I learned very quickly through dancing and through using my body was that actually all the things that were blocking me, I didn’t talk a lot when I was a kid. I was very quiet. I was all the time thinking. And I was a good student, but there was something very closed about me. But then there was a lot boiling inside, a lot of anger, that I didn’t know what to do with. And so through dancing, I really felt like I could express myself. But it also helped me to find my voice, to actually speak better, to dare to sing. You know, I remember when I was very young, I heard my brother sing, who had a beautiful voice, and I was like, so jealous because he’s my older brother. and he was like, so good at singing. And I was like, oh my God, I wish I could do that. And so you have these moments in your life where either through appreciation or through jealousy or through whatever feelings you’re, you’re dealing with you, you get motivated to find something. And I think the voice also came by working with Damian Jalet, who’s an amazing singer, actually, not a lot of people know this, but he’s one amazing voice. And, he studied ethnomusicology with, Giovanna Marini, who’s a, you know, big figure in Italy, doing a lot of research around old music, like music in different villages during specific rituals. And so he kind of initiated me in a, in seeing traditional forms of singing and realizing how powerful they were in terms of their harmonies, in the way they kind of like embody a sort of humanity that we’re kind of erasing, even with pop music today. So, when I began as an artist especially, I was mainly interested in forms that weren’t popular, forms that were not known even. And then I was like, oh, I want to bring this on stage music from the 14th century in Foi, or you know, a specific kind of like songs from Corsica, from places that were not that known, or only known in a certain, you know, music, reality. People that know a lot about, between brackets, the world music. But everything is world music like, and so I was I was intrigued and fascinated by that. So I started studying that, and try to apply that also as a performer, because it really gave me the feeling of, I could express parts of myself through these songs, through these, these different melodies.

Alistair: So just moving on to another kind of subject and that is collaborations. And, there’s been several and several people that you keep going back to collaborate. But the first one obviously was Zero Degrees for us. And, that was a seminal piece for us as a theatre as well. We opened it and it was a particularly difficult time in the world. And, and then with Maria Pagés you worked also, with Antony Gormley, you worked several times and I just wanted to know how you go about that. What sort of, how do you approach collaboration like that? Is it, who leads? And, you know, you are the choreographer. And so actually, you know, well, usually that’s you are the lead person, but I just wondered how you saw that relationship.

Sidi: Yeah, that’s a hard question, actually. I think the way I see it is, it’s a lot about listening to each other, really listening to the, and giving each other freedom. I think there’s something about the way you know, if I go back to Akram and me, for instance, way back, I think we gave each other a lot of space, and that generated a sense of confidence in each, each one of us to feel like, okay, there’s space for my idea, there’s space for your idea. And so giving each other that space was really essential. Then also just simply honouring the reality that this is a this is done with multiple voices. Just the clarity of that. You know, people always think that there’s one genius. And I’m like, no, no, there can be leaders involved. But it’s always, it always takes a village and you really you can’t get to a piece of work without a lot of other, you know, people around you who really somehow either inspired you or were in service of your idea and truly developed it with you. So I just try to be clear about it. So I think when people say, oh, you collaborate a lot, I’m like, yeah, but everybody does. And maybe we are just very vocal about it. And maybe that’s the dancer in me, also kind of the advocate of like back in the day when I was a dancer for Wim Vandekeybus or for Alain Platel, there was a lot of me there. And I think that’s also something I realized when I’m working now with dancers, there’s a lot of them in what I do. I work within credible performers right now, and there’s so much Patrick Williams was a doctor, incredible dancer. I think would be a phenomenal choreographer. Like there’s a lot of people I, I work with that somehow have their own voice too and what is hard and complex is in collaborations is like, what’s, what are we going to go for together. So with Maria Pagéz was fantastic because her and me, we always agreed. We had a very poetic vision of what we wanted to do together, and it just never, there was never a moment where we felt like, oh, no, that, I don’t want to do that, or she didn’t want to do that. I was very, very, very lucky to have a lot of collaborations in which we sort of felt like we were there to serve a bigger idea than either of us had on our own.

Alistair: Yeah, but I know that there in sometimes in processes, there are times and I’ll give you one example that I was aware of in Sutra because Antony Gormley was there and he came into the studio and, but he, he couldn’t understand your process sometimes that you would, you would just throw out a whole piece of, of work, taking a long time to, to create. And he was he was slightly frustrated by it because in a way, he wasn’t, I know this isn’t… I’m not I’m not criticizing Antony. He couldn’t see where you were headed. So you had this idea, the vision, and you knew what the end result was. And he was more or less facilitating the visual world and the physical world. But it’s it was interesting to hear that from him.

Sidi: Yeah. Yeah. But I think that sense, that sort of frustration is a daily thing. It’s like all of us have this all the time. I have that with dancers. I have this also with, you know, people I work with, whether it’s on the scenography or anything. It’s this notion of the impatience of like maybe Antony was already somewhere else with his mind, and I was still processing or the other way around. I think it’s really just sort of at the end of the day, frustration is part of it. It’s absolutely something you have to welcome. I was very frustrated at times, working on Zero Degrees and I’m sure Akram was as well. And we, but we but that deep down we knew that we wanted to go for the same thing. And I think it was the same for Antony and me, there’s a trust also that we, you know, so it’s like, it’s like a marriage, you have those good and bad moments. But, and then when it comes down to who is the most, you know, leader in the leadership game, I think the leadership isn’t in anyone’s hands. It’s really the project that decides. So Sutra decided itself. I had I had just to listen to what Sutra wanted and Sutra made itself. And Sutra said, you need to now do this. And it just starts to talk. It feels like always the project like Vlaemsch, which is this piece I’m bringing, I had to listen to it and I keep listening as long as I’m alive, I’m going to keep listening to the work and trying to let it lead us, because we are putting certain concepts on the table. Yeah, it’s like, you can’t really complete let’s say, you know, it’s the artist’s project or process rather is linked to a deep listening for all the voices. So sometimes Antony’s idea was the best and sometimes mine was the best, and sometimes Szymon had the best idea and sometimes the kid monk actually had the best idea. And we just had to listen and be like, this seems to be the right thing. And it doesn’t mean that it’s purely democratic. Because there’s still a processing involved. And at the end of the day, I am responsible and I’m signing this as a choreographer. So I better kind of take ownership and, feel responsible for it. But it does happen through, yeah, through a very intriguing process of trying to understand what’s best.

Alistair: So the other thing you you’ve been interested in is going outside of Europe and around the world looking at different, styles of movement and, and dance. And so Sutra is one of them, going to China and then Milonga is going to Buenos Aires to work with those dancers. I mean, what’s the… And also, I guess Maria Pagés as well as with flamenco so you’re always very keen to be looking at those other, other forms. So it’s sort of bringing them a little bit into your world as well.

Sidi: Yeah, I guess it’s what I’m interested in mainly is, to think borderless. So, the way we frame it also isn’t always the way I’d like to frame it. What I mean with that is that the notion of me going to China is because, you know, there’s something that I recognize there that I’m looking for here and that I’m not finding. And so I’m going elsewhere, you know, it’s like, yeah, just there’s something there that I think that the link between spirituality and physicality, something that I don’t have any examples here in England or in Belgium at this point. And so I felt that’s sort of interesting for us to explore that this, this non-duality, the idea of like wholeness, the connection of that, they’re these are the things that interest me more than let’s say, the geography of it. It’s the, it’s the deeper ideas that are present, but maybe a little bit subdued here. And that through other places where these voices are, for now, more vocal, I think. Let’s, let’s listen to those voices, because that’s where maybe there’s something that we are missing in our voices here. So my approach is a bit polyphonic. I think it’s really about understanding the multiple layers that create our humanity, and I feel like I’m looking for them sometimes all the way in Argentina, because in tango, the relationship between a dancer, a dancer and another dancer, the proximity without it needing to be sexual, it’s truly a form of a support and a form of almost, It’s almost like condolences for the difficulty of being human or being alive, and how we can be together in this. And I love this, this sensitivity that tango dancers have and that’s attracting me to working with them and I still work with them. You know, I did this one project, Milonga, but I’ve done thousands of other things with, with some of the performers there. I have kept my, my link forever, even if I work on Tezuka, a project around manga in Japan I brought two of the monks of the shouting temple in it. And so the the tendency is to simplify the project, and I have a tendency to constantly fight back, saying like it’s way more intertwined than we realize. Maria Pagés, when I worked with her, a part of our collaboration happened in China. She came to the Shaolin Temple to meet me there and discuss what we were going to do for Dunas, which really was important for us to understand the power of spirituality and then look for it in Spain through music that, there’s a song I’m singing, which is a very, sort of Christian song that pushed all the moors away, back to Morocco, back to, you know,, to the south, which I thought was very particular because it was part of a heritage of mine that was against another heritage of mine. And I loved that tension. And so when I sing it, I’m like, am I the oppressed or the oppressor because I am, my lineage is from both.

Alistair: And I mean, I was there at the beginning of, long ago, in Buenos Aires with you, luckily and I saw right in front of my eyes how quickly you as a dancer took on these forms incredibly in like in a week, you were dancing. Not as well, but almost as well as some of those other dancers. It was really, it was quite a remarkable thing to see. So you do absorb and also in Sutra, you do absorb these also in your body, in that process.

Sidi: Also, because I’m lucky to have people in front of me, very clear and very much sharing their knowledge. So, if you got the right teachers, a lot can be absorbed. So I was really, lucky with Nelida I was lucky with Nikito and all these incredible, artists who at that point were just giving me the information, were truly taking the time to, you know, you do need to take the time for that. And so I was like, so I felt very privileged.

Alistair: So, moving on to another part of your life and that’s working with within the structures of ballet companies. Right. So which is so we know it’s a very different thing. So first of all, with the Royal Ballet of Flanders, and I just wondered what that was like, to move into this world because, you know, it’s got it’s certain parameters, ways of working. You obviously, you know, we’re more used to an independent sort of way of working and, you know, just talk a little bit about that and also how you worked through that in a sense, and then coming out to make work.

Sidi: Yeah, I think it’s an ongoing process of learning and relearning and adaptation. The first time I worked with a ballet company was in 2004. So that’s almost 21 years ago with the Ballet de Monte-Carlo, which was an incredibly powerful experience, meaning I really enjoyed that company’s approach to meeting a choreographer. There were, you have to imagine you’re in Monte-Carlo, there’s these incredible studios Jean-Christophe Maillot, very generous choreographer, giving space to me to work with one or two or three dancers. And some of these people were from my generation, so that my first approach into as a contemporary thinker, working with ballet dancers was very, very positive, was incredibly, I don’t know, inspiring. I had dancers in front of me who were really willing to go that extra mile into the details of what I was trying to do. And so they would really pick up on very difficult movements. And I was sharing my knowledge of, because ballet dancers often are extremely technical when it comes down to their legs, how they can jump, how they can turn, how they can, you know, how they they have lines that are very exquisite and sort of very particular.

And then, and I come with a whole other set of rules, like, I think I come with much more fluidity, which is present in good ballet. It’s just, it’s in between. And I’m like, those in-between moments are the ones I’m most interested in. Plus then the aspect of coming in with, now I’m talking as a choreographer, coming in with different points of balance. So being on your elbow or being on your back or on your hip or on your knee, turning on your knee or things like this are things that aren’t very often done. And so for the ballet dancer, it was really, really exciting to expand their vocabulary, expand their technique, and give other techniques, you know, of what it’s like to stand on your head or things like this, because those are also forms of technique. And so I was just trying to expand technique. And then as a director, I think I learned a lot from my experiences as a choreographer, having the support of other artistic directors. So, by the time we were jumping into the 2015 when the Ballet Flanders was looking for leadership, I came in together with Thomas Moritz. So we were actually a tandem. And then later I worked, continued with Kiki and I continued to Stefan. I was always really well supported with someone next to me, but I also had an idea of like what I think would be healthy for these dancers to experience.

And I had my own idea of what, a repertory company could be doing, you know, with all these resources and with all this responsibility, what is history? What is dance history, what I found and these are my own little theories, but is that very often, female voices of the 20th century were always pushed into another form, like Martha Graham was doing modern and Pina Bausch was Tanz-theatre, we would just kind of like, erase them from the canon of classical dance. And so my tendency was to just kind of like reclaim this and be like, no, no, there’s a lot of forms of so my let’s say my focus became choreographers. I really started as much as when I was a choreographer. I was focused on dancers. As now, as artistic director, my focus has become choreographers. So it’s really like, no, I’m interested in people who have a very distinct physical language where you can’t not know it’s this person, because any dancer who performs it, you’re like, oh, this is very clearly this choreographer. So I started bringing in people, in Flanders. And I’m still now doing this in another way in Geneva as director of the company there, but, yeah, of course, you fight the system, too. You know, the system isn’t like I’m very, my artistry doesn’t think in time. I can’t be creative when you tell me now, between 10 and 10:15 Let’s be creative. It’s really hard for me, like I I just have good days and bad days and good moments. So having to stop in the middle of a flow because it’s six o’clock or, those are things that are really, really tough for me. And it would be tough in any kind of job. I would do that would be institutional.

Alistair: Yes. I guess that’s the question. I guess both those institutions, were open, I guess, to you coming in. That’s why you were brought in because that was the, but actually how you changed those systems is quite a task. We’re coming to the end now, so I just wanted to just touch on a couple of things, but just quickly, you know, you obviously also work with some famous pop stars. So Madonna… how is that? Is it the same or is it just very quick? And, you have to have a different approach to making work?

Sidi: Well, I think it’s, first of all, it’s the artist itself. Like, I love working for, someone like Madonna or someone like Beyoncé because, you know, it’s such a male dominated world we’re living in. So to have people, you know, women that are standing up and truly are the queen of their empire, I just love being in support of that. And then the work itself, like, Madonna has so much respect for choreographers. And she’s also very, concerned about the things that happen in the world. She’s very, very involved with things, in specific parts of the world. And so I find her quite a saint, actually. It’s not for nothing she’s called Madonna. So it’s funny that, you know, some people might think somebody is controversial or, you know, tough or something, and that’s very often said about women. And whilst actually they are maybe fixing the world at moments where we don’t realize it until much later, we’re like, oh my God, that was amazing that she did that and that she stood for that. So I have a tendency to be very loyal to that type of, you know, generosity or investment because it’s really her nature. But it was great. It was fun. It was very intense. And what’s lovely is that it’s like you work day and night, like these people, they are there because they are constantly working. And so, in a way, I felt at home because I felt like, oh, this is like the way I approach my day. Like, this isn’t something where you have to stop. No, no, no, we were working until three at night, four at night. Like there was really, really long days. Remember when we did Apeshit for Beyoncé we worked all night, two nights in the Louvre, was so intense. And in the day, we were rehearsing for the tour, so it was like the excitement of the investment. So sometimes young dancers or performers, they want, I wish I could do that. I’m like, you don’t know what you’re going to sign up for because this is really like, this demands full investment. You can’t do this and think like in an institution. These are two different things. And that’s maybe why I enjoy it, because it’s like I can be that part of myself in this place, and then I can be another way in this other place. I’ve always had that double nature.

Alistair: So finally just talking about the work which happens to be in Sadler’s Wells right now is, or coming soon, is Vlaemsch and it’s a piece which really talks about your relationship with the place you come from, Flanders, and, Just talk a little bit about it and also, what is that relationship? I mean, it’s probably not straightforward, I guess.

Sidi: Yeah, I think, it’s the relationship is the piece. So, if you see the piece, you kind of understand. I think there’s a lot to be said about it. But at the same time, it’s really hard to find all the words for it. Indeed, I think first of all, it’s an ode to my mother. And it’s a ode to my grandmother who are, you know, I’ve come from them and my nature of Flanders comes through them. My grandmother was a cleaning lady, and so she was always, you know, trying to tidy everything up. And my mum is a bit similar and I think I got that from them. This idea of like wanting to clean up stuff and make it really tidy and, you know, make sure that everything is as it should be. But there’s also a, sort of collector’s aspect to it. Like in Flanders, we have a tendency to, to keep everything like, as if we are afraid of the next war. It’s like this typical country that is dealing with a postwar sort of trauma. And you’re like, “let’s protect everything and let’s make sure we have enough in the fridge. You never know.” So I grew up with that sort of nature of wanting to keep everything. So the piece itself is a manifestation of all these things. I share it with dancers from all over the world. There’s a dancer from Ukraine, one from Russia, one from Congo, from America. So if I say these countries right away, you think of everything that’s going on in these countries. So they bring this also inside of Flanders and Flanders has this strange relationship with foreigners, as does England and Great Britain. There’s just this strange kind of like love-hate with people coming from elsewhere. And I wanted to address that in the work through sharing my culture with them. And so we sing songs from Flanders, which are fascinating because this old music, this old music from Flanders, is full of, you know, it’s against the French, it’s against the people from Holland, it’s against the Spanish. So it’s a constant saying like, “we are not like them, we are not like them.” So this music is beautiful, but also terrifying because it’s full of, trying to clarify who we are as a people.

And so I was fascinated by this old music, I hope audiences here in England will be able to connect to it, because it sort of feels like it’s very topical with everything that’s going on. Even just recently, it feels like it just demands sort of, analysis of how do we want to coexist and what do we want to how do we want to share the world? What do we want from the world in order and what do we have to give to get that from the world? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t just go to, I don’t know, an Indian restaurant and then at the same time be against the idea that there’s foreigners. It’s just not really practical and not possible. So you have to make choices. I think the work’s got a lot about that. And then it’s also about feminism. I think there’s a lot of women in the cast that are speaking up on things that very often are linked to my, Moroccan side, but are actually way more problematic in my Flemish side, I would say. And so it’s a critique, but it’s a very gentle critique because the good critique, which I’ve also learned with time, comes with a lot of care for growth. So people have made me grow by telling me, like, your piece is too long, or this or… I listen. Sometimes I don’t, but I actually appreciate. With this work, I did everything I just wanted to do, which is take the time I needed to take for myself, so I apologize for anyone who wants a short, easy, straightforward work. But it’s full of, you know, honest desire to speak about cultural lenses, to speak about, the complexity of identity and the dangers within it. And I hope that eventually we come to a place of serenity.

Alistair: Well, I think it sounds like it’s a sort of piece we really need, right now in this world. So thank you. And thanks for taking the time, to talk to us. And, that was very, we fitted everything in, just about.

Sidi: Awesome.

Alistair: So, thank you very much.

Sidi: Thank you so much.